MurraysWorld  >  Chit Chat  >  The future of British politics
Pages: 1 ... 235 236 237 [238] 239 240 241 ... 907 Reply

The future of British politics

Quote

I wasn't denying that, but surely in the end of the day it's up to the EIS to make sure that these policies are implemened?

. It is, but key issues are identifying/helping teachers who aren't up to the job, a profession which lacks the respect of the wider community, often does not enjoy backing of parents, and often lack the resources ( in all senses)  to guide and control a class. These issues were always present, but they appear endemic these days.  The kind of discipline that was generally accepted in my schooldays would have teachers out of a job and up before a judge nowadays. And some pupils probably benefitted from it.
IP Logged
Quote

. It is, but key issues are identifying/helping teachers who aren't up to the job, a profession which lacks the respect of the wider community, often does not enjoy backing of parents, and often lack the resources ( in all senses)  to guide and control a class. These issues were always present, but they appear endemic these days.  The kind of discipline that was generally accepted in my schooldays would have teachers out of a job and up before a judge nowadays. And some pupils probably benefitted from it.
Yes, I see what you mean, and agree 100% about the discipline bit!
IP Logged
Quote

I think that's a very simplistic view, but can completely understand why you come to it in these days of allegedly being able to fill in gaps in knowledge by consulting Google.  It really is all about the quick fix and thinking you have the answers at your fingertips, when you really don't.   Academic research still needs people who are committed and interested  to provide answers.  The lazy look them up - and I do think our society has become so lazy.  However, the answers just don't materialise.  They need people to provide them.

It's very difficult to have this kind of discussion on this kind of medium - so much is lost in the lack of momentum and eye contact and body language that comes through in a face to face chat.

It is rather simplistic, on reflection, yeah.

I wasn't meaning that we should get rid of the academic side altogether, but more that we need to look at a better balance. We still give the impression that knowing facts and figures equals intelligence, and that's no longer the case.

Consider the fallout from the recent Higher Maths exam in Scotland. My girlfriend's brother has a doctorate in mathematics and was visiting us when that all kicked off. He had a look at the question involved, and whilst he agreed that the sort of thinking required for it may be considered a bit advanced for that age and level, he also felt the reaction was over the top.

One bad question, one that required a little more (and not much more) than "ah, this is the formula you use for this one, let's get the calculator out" had the majority of kids sitting the exam in a panic, and that's not been the only time. Maths and English should be absolutely focusing on how to analyse, how to think beyond the obvious, and how to solve problems. Looking at what my son has been learning, I don't see much of that.

I'd genuinely get rid of exams right now. I don't think they're a good measure of anything.
IP Logged
Quote

. It is, but key issues are identifying/helping teachers who aren't up to the job, a profession which lacks the respect of the wider community, often does not enjoy backing of parents, and often lack the resources ( in all senses)  to guide and control a class. These issues were always present, but they appear endemic these days.  The kind of discipline that was generally accepted in my schooldays would have teachers out of a job and up before a judge nowadays. And some pupils probably benefitted from it.

Now there's a debate - what constitutes a benefit?

If we're of the opinion discipline and control are of benefit, we're as well bringing back National Service.
IP Logged
Quote


If we're of the opinion discipline and control are of benefit, we're as well bringing back National Service.

Might lose you the youth vote a tad. Though would no doubt appeal to some of the grey vote who never did it themselves
IP Logged
Quote

Now there's a debate - what constitutes a benefit?

If we're of the opinion discipline and control are of benefit, we're as well bringing back National Service.

That's a big jump from discipline in the classroom to National Service.
IP Logged
Quote

Now there's a debate - what constitutes a benefit?

If we're of the opinion discipline and control are of benefit, we're as well bringing back National Service.
   

 Now there's a leap of logic. A benefit is clearly something which provides a positive outcome for the individual concerned, and while it might not be perceived as such at the time of receipt, ultimately proves of value. But everybody is different, and what would work in some cases, might be counterproductive in others. A good teacher or parent who understands the kids they are responsible for  should know what is appropriate.
IP Logged
Quote

 
 a parent who understands the kids they are responsible for  should know what is appropriate.
If only, if only. I taught a kid whose parents hated each other so much they couldn't be in the same building on parents' evenings. And the absolutely fabulous arrangement they had worked out for their poor son, was that he spent one night with one parent and the next with the other, and so on. And OMG surprise, surprise, he did rather badly at school.   Rolling Eyes
IP Logged
Quote

That's a big jump from discipline in the classroom to National Service.
   

 Now there's a leap of logic. A benefit is clearly something which provides a positive outcome for the individual concerned, and while it might not be perceived as such at the time of receipt, ultimately proves of value. But everybody is different, and what would work in some cases, might be counterproductive in others. A good teacher or parent who understands the kids they are responsible for  should know what is appropriate.

100% it is.

But the idea that better discipline in the classroom will work is akin to that. The argument is exactly the same. More discipline, teach them more respect etc etc.

What you describe as a benefit is so intangible, and so unable to be linked to a more disciplined classroom, that it's impossible to measure.
IP Logged
Quote

^   Are you saying discipline doesn't work?
IP Logged
Quote

^   Are you saying discipline doesn't work?

I'm saying it's impossible to know either way.

I wasn't really disciplined, and never really got into trouble. Just my character, rather boring that way.

Wouldn't be unknown for someone with a normal, disciplined upbringing to become an absolute psycho, or someone from a massively broken home to go on and do well etc.

Genetics is as big a factor as lifestyle. Some people are just born to be rebellious or the likes.
IP Logged
Quote

The only discipline worth having is self-discipline, together with a moral code that advocates not harming others, or perhaps not doing to others that which you'd not like done to you. Unfortunately that's not a model widely taught at school or home.   
IP Logged
Quote


I wasn't really disciplined, and never really got into trouble. Just my character, rather boring that way.

.  I'll bet you were. Your parents most likely provided moral guidance and correction which is soft discipline if you like. Discipline isn't just about punishment and deprivation.
IP Logged
Quote

The only discipline worth having is self-discipline, together with a moral code that advocates not harming others, or perhaps not doing to others that which you'd not like done to you. Unfortunately that's not a model widely taught at school or home.   

I don't think you can have self-discipline without learning how to accept discipline first.    I was quite rebellious as a child but learned to accept limits which were set for me, mainly from my mother.    I like to think it did me no harm but others may disagree with that.      Whistle 
IP Logged
Quote

Across society we've seen a big decline in deference - attitudes to teachers are just one example.

Overall i woudn't say it is a bad thing - having a critical attitude to institutions and decision makers is healthy to a point.

In terms of schools my feeling is that it would help for more parents to back up teachers more of the time. If they seem a bit harsh here or there then, so? That is still pretty trivial and something kids should maybe get used to in life.

 Im not a teacher so have no vested interest - just seems to me that some parents march in to the school at the slightest percieved injustice to Farquar or Jemima. But this is a very subjective perception that might not be typical.
IP Logged
Pages: 1 ... 235 236 237 [238] 239 240 241 ... 907 Reply